CARL SANDERS: THE
John S. Torell
Released January 25, 1994
This document will be
released to a number of ministries that have asked for it, and it
will also be printed in "The Dove",
Spring Issue of 1994. When I began to investigate Carl Sanders,
it was done with my understanding that Carl Sanders was telling
the truth and that he was being attacked. I have entered
information into my computer as it came to me, and thus you can
follow the development. As the investigation continued, it became
clear to me that I would have to face the painful truth, that CARL
SANDERS IS A LIAR. I am also sending a copy of this
report to Carl Sanders. If you want to have photocopies of the
documents that Carl Sanders furnished to me, you can order them
from us for a $10.00 fee. We are not financially able to make
large numbers of copies available to hundreds of people. May the
body of Christ pray for this fallen Christian leader and his
wife, and may we all learn a lesson from it, that all of us MUST
WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.
I received a telephone call from Carl Sanders early in the
morning of December 27, 1993. I had been waiting for some time
for Carl to call me, as I had been trying to get together with
him since the meetings at Resurrection Life of Jesus some weeks
In this phone call he told
me that Mary Trask had started to attack his ministry. He told me
that Mary had contacted a former partner in the State of
Washington, who had given her a lot of negative information. Mary
was calling various pastors in the Sacramento area and telling
them that Carl Sanders was a fraud and that he had been lying
about his past and credentials.
Carl seemed very upset about
this. After discussing it for some time, I then tried to get a
date for a meeting with Carl and his wife. He stated that they
were going to travel north to Washington, to be together with his
family for a few days so would call me back, once he had
discussed this with his wife. When he called back, the date was
set to January 4, 1994 at noon in my church office.
Later, during the morning of
December 27 I received a phone call from Gordon Ginn. He stated
that he had received a phone call from Des Griffin in Oregon. Des
told Gordon that Terry Cook, a former Los Angeles Police
Department employee, had started to call a number of prominent people informing them that Carl Sanders was a fraud.
Terry Cook had been doing a
live interview with Carl on a radio program some time ago, and at
that time Terry asked Carl to share with the audience about his
education and credentials. Carl avoided answering that request,
and during the rest of the program he talked around the subject.
Terry then launched his own private investigation and concluded
that he could not verify any of the claims that Carl had been
making in his meetings or on radio and TV programs.
After hearing this from
Gordon, I immediately telephoned Carl Sanders and asked him what
he knew about Terry Cook. He told me that he was aware of Terry's
investigation, and Carl told me that Terry was a very bitter man. At this point Carl told me that it was Terry Cook who
had phoned Mary Trask and given her negative information. When I
talked to Carl the first time, my conclusion was that Mary had
attacked Carl because Carl and Ruby (his wife) were defending my
ministry. This Information was omitted by Carl in
the first phone call.
Carl explained to me over
the telephone that his doctor's degree was an honorary degree
from the University of Hong Kong, and that he had no formal
degree from any American university. He proceeded to tell me that
during his years in the American Air Force, he had been taking
classes all the time but had never stayed long enough in one
place to graduate, so he never received a formal degree.
I told Carl that it was of
utmost importance that he gather up all documentation that he
could find in his Walnut Creek location and we needed to meet that day, so I could look over his documents and start
my own investigation. He agreed to this, and he met me at six o'clock that
evening in my church office.
When we met, he told me that
he had sent the same documentation to Gary Kah's office in
Indiana, since they were also investigating this matter.
At this meeting I told Carl
and his wife Ruby that it was very important to resolve this
matter quickly. Looking over the documents, I found that Carl had
been in the Air Force for at least 10 years, and that he retired
as a staff sergeant with the rank of E-6.
I asked Carl to give me
names and telephone numbers of Christians with whom he had been
in contact from the time of his conversion to Christ. He gave me
the following names and numbers:
Morehead of Overlake Christian Church, (200) 827-0303 or
1(800) 275-6304 State of Washington. Carl had been in
this church until 1987 and stated that he had headed up a
large mens ministry.
From here Carl and Ruby had moved to
Central Washington, where he claimed that he had purchased a large 18-room
house on a hill. Mr. and Mrs. Lince had been close friends with
them. Mr. Lince was now dead, but Carl gave me the phone
number to his wife, Nancy Lince, (509) 997-2952
Carl also gave me the name of an evangelist
from this area who had known them well, Lou McCoy. (509) 458-9366
On December 30 I tried to
call Pastor Morehead, but was told by a church secretary that he
was in a meeting. She said that he would call me back, which he
did some hours later. I asked the pastor if he knew of Carl
Sanders and he said that he did. I told him that I was doing an
Investigation and I asked him if he would kindly answer my
questions. He consented to do this.
When I asked him if Carl
Sanders had headed up their men's ministry, the answer was no.
Pastor Morehead told me that the church had a men's ministry, but
that a council headed it up. Carl had been a member of this
council, and had been part of the operation, but he was never in
charge. When I asked if Carl had been the major speaker for this
group, the answer was no. The pastor said that at all the
meetings one of the pastors from the church would speak, and that
the only speaking Carl had done was to give his testimony from
time to time.
After some time, friction
developed and Carl left the men's ministry. Pastor Morehead told
me that he was not aware of this problem until later when the
assistant pastor in charge told him. I then requested pastor
Morehead to have his assistant pastor write a statement and have
that mailed to me, detailing all activities of Carl Sanders in
the church. Pastor Morehead stated that he would at once direct
his assistant pastor to handle this, and I gave him my mailing
Before we stopped talking, Pastor Morehead told me that he was not
aware that Carl had a
doctor's degree when he was attending their church and that
several phone calls had come in from all over the nation
requesting information about Carl Sanders.
On this same day, I also
called Nancy Lince. She was very polite and friendly. She told me
that she would be glad to answer my questions. She told me that
Carl and Ruby Sanders had moved to their area around 1987, and
that her husband (a real estate broker) had rented a house to the
Sanders. The owners of this property lived in Southern
California, and were eventually going to move back to Washington.
This happened some time later, and Mr. Lince then rented them
another house. The Sanders never purchased a home in this area.
Nancy then told me that the
Sanders had been part of a house church in the area for some
time, but that they later came into conflict with the leader of
the group. As a result they had withdrawn from this fellowship
and for some time attended an Assembly of God church.
Nancy told me that she did
not have as much dealing with the Sanders as had her husband. She
said that her husband (a devout Christian) had confidence In Carl
and helped him as much as he could. When Carl started to move
into the ministry, Mr. Lince helped him to join a loose mission
umbrella organization, to which people could send donations and
they, in turn, would give it to the Sanders. She did not know if
the Sanders were still in this organization or not. Otherwise, she
stated that she knew very little about the Sanders. She had heard
that he had been involved in a computer business on the coast of
Washington, but that is all she knew.
I also telephoned Texe Marrs
and shared with him that I had started an investigation. He told
me that the message that Carl Sanders was bringing forth was
correct, but that his question was concerning the messenger. At
this point Texe wanted to distance himself from Carl. Texe told
me that he doubted that Carl would have had access to top secret
research in the Air Force, since he had held such a low rank.
I finished my investigative
work this day by returning Gordon Ginn's call. He was happy that
I had started on this project, and said, "If Carl is telling the
truth, we, should rally around him." Gordon then stated, "If Carl is
not telling the truth, he should be held accountable." Gordon is
going to contact Terry Cook and ask him in detail of what he is
accusing Carl Sanders. Gordon is not going to mention my name, nor
that Gordon and I are close friends. In this way Terry will not
be defensive, but reveal what he knows.
On Friday, December 24, Gary
Kah's secretary (Patricia) called my office, and Celia Gurn
notified me to call Patricia. Gary Kah's telephone (317)
576-1043; Fax (317) 676-1063
Patricia told me that she
had received the document package via Federal Express from Carl
Sanders. She told me that she had attempted to verify the schools
that Carl Sanders said that he had attended, and so far she was
having no success. Carl told her on the telephone three days before,
that I had requested documents and that I was investigating. She
wanted to coordinate this with me, which I agreed to do. I told
her that as I found out more facts, I would share them with her.
She told me that she had been in telephone contact with Texe
Marrs, and Carl had told me that Terry Cook had placed a call
earlier to Patricia. She agreed with me to hold off any judgments until we had completed our Investigation.
Carl Sanders telephone
message number: (509) 623-6285 Walnut Creek Office: (510)
I have requested the medical
records of Carl Sanders, plus all other records documenting
classes he has taken at different universities, plus the papers
showing his honorable doctors degree from the University of Hong
Kong. As of December 28, 1993 I have not received them.
During my investigation into
Carl Sanders background, I found him to be evasive and
withholding information from me, despite that in our first
meeting Carl wanted me to search out the truth and help him be
vindicated from the accusations he was facing.
When he was in our church in
early December 1993, he told me that someone in the city of
Benicia, California had offered him an office, a secretary and
that the rent for this place had been paid in advance for one
year. It was not until Carl sent me some faxes, that I learned
from the letterhead used, that his office was not in Benicia, but
in Walnut Creek in the building of a church called Victory
Christian Center, with Pastor Ernest Amstalden.
Pastor Amstalden had
furnished Carl with a complete office set up, including
telephones and a fax line. Who is paying for the secretary I do
not know. There is a very prominent lawyer in this church, and in
my conversation with Carl it became clear that he also knows this
lawyer. If the lawyer has been guiding Carl and advising him I do
not know, but the findings in this investigation indicate to me
that Carl is being handled by someone.
2815 Mitchell Drive, Suite 202
Walnut Creek, Ca. 94598
Before Carl Sanders and his
wife Ruby left Walnut Creek in December to travel to the state of
Washington and meet with their children, an appointment was set for January 4,
1994 when Carl and Ruby would come back and meet
with me again to present all of the documentation that they were
going to pick up in storage. During the week between Christmas
and New Year's Day I received a phone call from Carl in which
this appointment was moved to January 5,1994. This
meeting was also canceled by Carl and a new date was set for
January 10, 1994 to be held at 1:00 p.m. at my office in Citrus
On January 10, 1994 the
meeting took place, and the following people were present: Carl
Sanders and his wife Ruby, myself (John S. Torell), my wife Aina
and my assistant pastor, William Chacon. The meeting lasted from
approximately 1:20 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.
The meeting was opened in
prayer and a specific prayer was said that all lying spirits
should be bound and unable to operate. It was very obvious that
both Carl and Ruby Sanders were very emotionally moved, and that
especially Ruby had a very broken spirit. I then handed Carl and
Ruby a copy of my report, that at this time was completed through
page 4 and included the two letters from Gordon Ginn. Copies were
also handed to my wife and William Chacon. Time was spent reading these.
Once Carl Sanders and the
rest of us had read the report, Carl started the
meeting by openly stating that he had repented to God for lying,
that he had asked his wife for forgiveness for lying and that he
had asked all of his children for forgiveness for lying.
He then proceeded to tell us that he did not have any degrees at
all, except an honorary doctors degree from the University
of Hong Kong. When I pressed him to produce documents to prove
this, he stated that he had lost this document, and that it would
take time to get a photocopy from the University of Hong Kong.
Carl told us that as he had
worked for the Air Force and later for private corporations, he had attended classes at different colleges and universities in
the United States, but he never had received any formal degree.
At one time he had enough credits to get a degree, but due to his
lack of finances, this never materialized.
When I asked him why he had
lied to so many pastors and people, he gave the following explanation:
The LIE had begun
early in his life, when he still was an enlisted man in
the United States Air Force. Since he did not get the
ranks and promotions that he felt were due him, he began
to invent his own to enable him to be more successful.
Once he had left the Air Force, he was constantly lying
about his credentials in order to get better paying
When I look over the
documents that Carl Sanders has furnished me, the following
picture emerges: In the Air Force he was in charge of repair and
maintenance of instruments, such as Electronic Engine Pressure
and Fuel Gauging, electronic Digital Data Processing Equipment,
the Sage Computer System as a repair man, optic repairs of
sextants, repairs of airspeeds/rate of climbs/altimeters/attitude
HERE IS THE TRUTH: IN THE
AIR FORCE CARL SANDERS WAS AN ENLISTED MAN WORKING IN MAINTENANCE
AND REPAIRS, BUT SKILLED ENOUGH THAT HE WAS SENT TO A NUMBER OF
TRAINING PROGRAMS. HE BECAME A SKILLED TECHNICIAN, AND WITH HIS
LYING HE WAS ABLE TO FIND JOBS IN THE CIVILIAN SECTOR THAT HE WAS
NOT ENTITLED TO.
During 1967 Carl Sanders was
working for General Electric as a Headquarters Field Engineer,
but he was not in charge of any operations, he was a simple
technician working under others. Carl's bragging about his high
salaries are not true either. Looking at employment agreements
from 1981 between R26E of America, Inc., a Minnesota corporation
and Carl Sanders salary was set to $36,000.00 per year.
Indicating that he was paid as a technician.
Looking at his employment
contract with the Polaris Computer Company, dated May 31, 1282,
his salary was set at $30,000.00 per year, plus a housing
allowance of 40% of his monthly salary. If Carl Sanders was in
charge of the operation of the Polaris Computer Company in Hong
Kong with such a low salary, the company must not have had a high
regard for Carl Sanders.
When I confronted Carl with
this, he told me that all companies lie about salaries. This is
done so that the IRS can be duped. Carl told me that he was paid
under the table large amounts of money, including stocks in the
company, to evade paying taxes. If this is true, here is another
lie that Carl lived.
When I asked him about his
statement that his name is on a number of microcomputer chips, he
confessed that this was another lie he had told. According to
Carl the truth is that he had his name signed on a blue print
many years ago, when he was part of a work team that was trying
to further develop the microchip. When I asked him about his
statement that he was heading up a 100 man research team that
was working on the development of the micro chip, he told me that
this was not true either. Carl then told us that there were three
groups working on this project, and according to Carl, he was in
charge of the 30-man group from General Electric. I doubt very
much that he was in charge of this smaller group.
After reading photocopies of the documents that Carl Sanders
furnished to me, and after talking with him on two occasions
since his lying was discovered, this is my conclusion:
is a very brilliant man, but void of moral understanding.
That he has been living a lie for the last 30 years did
not bother him at all. When he received Christ a few
years ago, the lying was never dealt with. Thus he lived
a double life as a born again Christian and as a shrewd
When he was operated on for
terminal cancer in June, 1990 at the VA hospital in Spokane,
Washington, he felt that God spoke to him and was calling him
into full time ministry. When I pressed Carl on this issue, he
told me that in the beginning of his meetings, he tried to preach
Christ and holiness and call people to repentance, but the
response was not there. However, when he began talking about the end
times and the development of the microchip, people responded in
mass, and suddenly he was drawn into this message. Carl told me
that with each meeting the old LIE WOULD GET BIGGER AND BIGGER.
Suddenly he found himself back with the old lie, and he did not
know how to get out of it. Carl then told me he felt that the message was so important, he began to invent his degrees
in order to have more credibility with people. The Lie was now
getting bigger and bigger as Carl became known nationally and
internationally. Then followed the TV interviews, the radio
programs, meetings in large churches and prophecy conferences.
Being very smart Carl was
able to read up on the subject and took information from other
sources. For example, the microchips that he displayed in his
meetings, including the scanner and the implant gun, he had
purchased from Terry Cook for $2000.00, which he never paid. Just
prior to this meeting with me, he had returned the material to
Terry Cook in Los Angeles.
At the end of our meeting I
openly rebuked Carl and told him that he had lied to God and his
church and that this was a sin which had to be dealt with. Both
he and his wife broke down and began to cry. Carl then told us
that he had asked God to forgive him for this horrible sin and
now he was asking us if we would forgive him. Each one of us told
him that in the name of Jesus we did forgive him.
I then proceeded to tell
Carl that his ministry was over and the only decent thing for him
to do was to shut it down, and notify the people he had lied to. I told Cad that he should take at least one year off, and use
that time to read the Bible, seek God and ask God to rebuild him
and give him an understanding that God is light and that we
cannot have any lies at all in our lives. I told him he should
put himself under a pastor and a church, and be held accountable
to that church, and once he had matured, God would restore his
ministry (he is a good preacher), but that the message of the
microchip and the end times is out for him. He should concentrate
on preaching Christ and Christ Crucified.
Furthermore, I told him that
he should write a lengthy confession, and in detail share with
people what he had done and where he had gone wrong. I promised
to print this in the next issue of The Dove, so that he could come clean with
the whole church, not only in America but also in the other
nations where his message had gone.
I also told him that he
needed to go through deliverance, and be set free from the lying
spirits that had been in his body for all these years. We offered,
as a church, to help him with this. Under tears, Carl and his wife
received this and agreed that this was the road that they would
take. The meeting closed with prayer, more tears, and we all
hugged before we left.
Carl had promised me to go
to work on his confession at once, and at the same time shut down
his operation in Walnut Creek.
The following week I
received a phone call from Carl, and he stated to me that the
next day the confession was to be faxed to me. His voice was very
cold when he talked to me, and it became clear to me that what
Carl and Ruby had said in my office was not how he felt now. If
the church in Walnut Creek with Pastor Amstalden had anything to
do with this, I do not know. (It is noteworthy that during this
month of investigation, Pastor Amstalden had made no effort to
On January 11th,
1994 I received my last phone call from Carl Sanders. He stated
to me that he was not going to write a confession. In the phone
call the day before he told me that he had written a two page
statement, which I told him was not a confession, and a document
of reconciliation with the body of Christ, which he had hurt.
Again, his voice was cold and he stated that he was not going to
defend himself, but that he was going to close down his ministry
and move on. He then told me that he wanted me to write his
confession since I had been with him and had all the facts. I
told him, that it would not be the same as coming from him. But
his mind was made up, and he told me good bye. I quickly told him
that I had prepared four radio broadcasts, which would explain to
the people living In Central California, what had happened to
Carl Sanders. He wanted to know the time and the station, so that
he could listen. I asked him what he was going to do about his
deliverance from the lying spirits. He told me that he would pray
about the matter. His manner and his voice told me that this was
going to be the last time I heard from Carl Sanders. He was
through with me and he was going to do his own thing.
Before I let him go. I asked
how he was going to make a living. He told me that he had a small
pension and disability payments from the government and that this
would sustain him and his wife.
It is with deep sorrow that
I have to write this report. I believe that Carl Sander and his
wife Ruby really love God, but they are running from God and from
taking responsibility. They are receiving bad advice from
someone, and thus the body of Christ will suffer. I hold no anger
or bitterness toward Carl Sanders; I feel only a great sorrow in
my heart that I could not help a brother to be restored. In our
ministry we have destroyed all the material concerning Carl
Sanders and I ask all the people who purchased tapes from us to forgive me for selling them to you. I should have investigated
him before promoting his ministry and I have asked God for forgiveness. I hope that you will also be able to forgive me.
John S. Torell
Pastor of Resurrection Life of Jesus Church, Sacramento, CA
President of European-American Evangelistic Crusades
Fax: (530) 633-2918
Wood (208) 459-9755
Pastor Ernest Amstalden (515) 826-0376
Carl Sanders - Part
Carl Sanders - Part 3
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