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CARL SANDERS: THE INVESTIGATION

John S. Torell

Released January 25, 1994

 

This document will be released to a number of ministries that have asked for it, and it will also be printed in "The Dove", Spring Issue of 1994. When I began to investigate Carl Sanders, it was done with my understanding that Carl Sanders was telling the truth and that he was being attacked. I have entered information into my computer as it came to me, and thus you can follow the development. As the investigation continued, it became clear to me that I would have to face the painful truth, that CARL SANDERS IS A LIAR. I am also sending a copy of this report to Carl Sanders. If you want to have photocopies of the documents that Carl Sanders furnished to me, you can order them from us for a $10.00 fee. We are not financially able to make large numbers of copies available to hundreds of people. May the body of Christ pray for this fallen Christian leader and his wife, and may we all learn a lesson from it, that all of us MUST WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

DECEMBER 28,1993
I received a telephone call from Carl Sanders early in the morning of December 27, 1993. I had been waiting for some time for Carl to call me, as I had been trying to get together with him since the meetings at Resurrection Life of Jesus some weeks earlier.

In this phone call he told me that Mary Trask had started to attack his ministry. He told me that Mary had contacted a former partner in the State of Washington, who had given her a lot of negative information. Mary was calling various pastors in the Sacramento area and telling them that Carl Sanders was a fraud and that he had been lying about his past and credentials.

Carl seemed very upset about this. After discussing it for some time, I then tried to get a date for a meeting with Carl and his wife. He stated that they were going to travel north to Washington, to be together with his family for a few days so would call me back, once he had discussed this with his wife. When he called back, the date was set to January 4, 1994 at noon in my church office.

Later, during the morning of December 27 I received a phone call from Gordon Ginn. He stated that he had received a phone call from Des Griffin in Oregon. Des told Gordon that Terry Cook, a former Los Angeles Police Department employee, had started to call a number of prominent people informing them that Carl Sanders was a fraud.

Terry Cook had been doing a live interview with Carl on a radio program some time ago, and at that time Terry asked Carl to share with the audience about his education and credentials. Carl avoided answering that request, and during the rest of the program he talked around the subject. Terry then launched his own private investigation and concluded that he could not verify any of the claims that Carl had been making in his meetings or on radio and TV programs.

After hearing this from Gordon, I immediately telephoned Carl Sanders and asked him what he knew about Terry Cook. He told me that he was aware of Terry's investigation, and Carl told me that Terry was a very bitter man. At this point Carl told me that it was Terry Cook who had phoned Mary Trask and given her negative information. When I talked to Carl the first time, my conclusion was that Mary had attacked Carl because Carl and Ruby (his wife) were defending my ministry. This Information was omitted by Carl in the first phone call.

Carl explained to me over the telephone that his doctor's degree was an honorary degree from the University of Hong Kong, and that he had no formal degree from any American university. He proceeded to tell me that during his years in the American Air Force, he had been taking classes all the time but had never stayed long enough in one place to graduate, so he never received a formal degree.

I told Carl that it was of utmost importance that he gather up all documentation that he could find in his Walnut Creek location and we needed to meet that day, so I could look over his documents and start my own investigation. He agreed to this, and he met me at six o'clock that evening in my church office.

When we met, he told me that he had sent the same documentation to Gary Kah's office in Indiana, since they were also investigating this matter.

At this meeting I told Carl and his wife Ruby that it was very important to resolve this matter quickly. Looking over the documents, I found that Carl had been in the Air Force for at least 10 years, and that he retired as a staff sergeant with the rank of E-6.

I asked Carl to give me names and telephone numbers of Christians with whom he had been in contact from the time of his conversion to Christ. He gave me the following names and numbers:

  1. Pastor Bob Morehead of Overlake Christian Church, (200) 827-0303 or 1(800) 275-6304 State of Washington. Carl had been in this church until 1987 and stated that he had headed up a large men’s ministry.

  2. From here Carl and Ruby had moved to Central Washington, where he claimed that he had purchased a large 18-room house on a hill. Mr. and Mrs. Lince had been close friends with them. Mr. Lince was now dead, but Carl gave me the phone number to his wife, Nancy Lince, (509) 997-2952

  3. Carl also gave me the name of an evangelist from this area who had known them well, Lou McCoy. (509) 458-9366

On December 30 I tried to call Pastor Morehead, but was told by a church secretary that he was in a meeting. She said that he would call me back, which he did some hours later. I asked the pastor if he knew of Carl Sanders and he said that he did. I told him that I was doing an Investigation and I asked him if he would kindly answer my questions. He consented to do this.

When I asked him if Carl Sanders had headed up their men's ministry, the answer was no. Pastor Morehead told me that the church had a men's ministry, but that a council headed it up. Carl had been a member of this council, and had been part of the operation, but he was never in charge. When I asked if Carl had been the major speaker for this group, the answer was no. The pastor said that at all the meetings one of the pastors from the church would speak, and that the only speaking Carl had done was to give his testimony from time to time.

After some time, friction developed and Carl left the men's ministry. Pastor Morehead told me that he was not aware of this problem until later when the assistant pastor in charge told him. I then requested pastor Morehead to have his assistant pastor write a statement and have that mailed to me, detailing all activities of Carl Sanders in the church. Pastor Morehead stated that he would at once direct his assistant pastor to handle this, and I gave him my mailing address.

Before we stopped talking, Pastor Morehead told me that he was not aware that Carl had a doctor's degree when he was attending their church and that several phone calls had come in from all over the nation requesting information about Carl Sanders.

On this same day, I also called Nancy Lince.  She was very polite and friendly. She told me that she would be glad to answer my questions. She told me that Carl and Ruby Sanders had moved to their area around 1987, and that her husband (a real estate broker) had rented a house to the Sanders. The owners of this property lived in Southern California, and were eventually going to move back to Washington. This happened some time later, and Mr. Lince then rented them another house. The Sanders never purchased a home in this area.

Nancy then told me that the Sanders had been part of a house church in the area for some time, but that they later came into conflict with the leader of the group. As a result they had withdrawn from this fellowship and for some time attended an Assembly of God church.

Nancy told me that she did not have as much dealing with the Sanders as had her husband. She said that her husband (a devout Christian) had confidence In Carl and helped him as much as he could. When Carl started to move into the ministry, Mr. Lince helped him to join a loose mission umbrella organization, to which people could send donations and they, in turn, would give it to the Sanders. She did not know if the Sanders were still in this organization or not. Otherwise, she stated that she knew very little about the Sanders. She had heard that he had been involved in a computer business on the coast of Washington, but that is all she knew.

I also telephoned Texe Marrs and shared with him that I had started an investigation. He told me that the message that Carl Sanders was bringing forth was correct, but that his question was concerning the messenger. At this point Texe wanted to distance himself from Carl. Texe told me that he doubted that Carl would have had access to top secret research in the Air Force, since he had held such a low rank.

I finished my investigative work this day by returning Gordon Ginn's call. He was happy that I had started on this project, and said, "If Carl is telling the truth, we, should rally around him." Gordon then stated, "If Carl is not telling the truth, he should be held accountable." Gordon is going to contact Terry Cook and ask him in detail of what he is accusing Carl Sanders. Gordon is not going to mention my name, nor that Gordon and I are close friends. In this way Terry will not be defensive, but reveal what he knows.

On Friday, December 24, Gary Kah's secretary (Patricia) called my office, and Celia Gurn notified me to call Patricia. Gary Kah's telephone (317) 576-1043; Fax (317) 676-1063

Patricia told me that she had received the document package via Federal Express from Carl Sanders. She told me that she had attempted to verify the schools that Carl Sanders said that he had attended, and so far she was having no success. Carl told her on the telephone three days before, that I had requested documents and that I was investigating. She wanted to coordinate this with me, which I agreed to do. I told her that as I found out more facts, I would share them with her. She told me that she had been in telephone contact with Texe Marrs, and Carl had told me that Terry Cook had placed a call earlier to Patricia. She agreed with me to hold off any judgments until we had completed our Investigation.

Carl Sanders telephone message number: (509) 623-6285 Walnut Creek Office: (510) 934-3703

I have requested the medical records of Carl Sanders, plus all other records documenting classes he has taken at different universities, plus the papers showing his honorable doctors degree from the University of Hong Kong. As of December 28, 1993 I have not received them.

During my investigation into Carl Sanders background, I found him to be evasive and withholding information from me, despite that in our first meeting Carl wanted me to search out the truth and help him  be vindicated from the accusations he was facing.

When he was in our church in early December 1993, he told me that someone in the city of Benicia, California had offered him an office, a secretary and that the rent for this place had been paid in advance for one year. It was not until Carl sent me some faxes, that I learned from the letterhead used, that his office was not in Benicia, but in Walnut Creek in the building of a church called Victory Christian Center, with Pastor Ernest Amstalden.

Pastor Amstalden had furnished Carl with a complete office set up, including telephones and a fax line. Who is paying for the secretary I do not know. There is a very prominent lawyer in this church, and in my conversation with Carl it became clear that he also knows this lawyer. If the lawyer has been guiding Carl and advising him I do not know, but the findings in this investigation indicate to me that Carl is being handled by someone.

VICTORY CHRISTIAN CENTER
2815 Mitchell Drive, Suite 202
Walnut Creek, Ca. 94598
(510) 939-2800

Before Carl Sanders and his wife Ruby left Walnut Creek in December to travel to the state of Washington and meet with their children, an appointment was set for January 4, 1994 when Carl and Ruby would come back and meet with me again to present all of the documentation that they were going to pick up in storage. During the week between Christmas and New Year's Day I received a phone call from Carl in which this appointment was moved to January 5,1994. This meeting was also canceled by Carl and a new date was set for January 10, 1994 to be held at 1:00 p.m. at my office in Citrus Heights.

On January 10, 1994 the meeting took place, and the following people were present: Carl Sanders and his wife Ruby, myself (John S. Torell), my wife Aina and my assistant pastor, William Chacon. The meeting lasted from approximately 1:20 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.

The meeting was opened in prayer and a specific prayer was said that all lying spirits should be bound and unable to operate. It was very obvious that both Carl and Ruby Sanders were very emotionally moved, and that especially Ruby had a very broken spirit. I then handed Carl and Ruby a copy of my report, that at this time was completed through page 4 and included the two letters from Gordon Ginn. Copies were also handed to my wife and William Chacon. Time was spent reading these.

Once Carl Sanders and the rest of us had read the report, Carl started the meeting by openly stating that he had repented to God for lying, that he had asked his wife for forgiveness for lying and that he had asked all of his children for forgiveness for lying. He then proceeded to tell us that he did not have any degrees at all, except an honorary doctor’s degree from the University of Hong Kong. When I pressed him to produce documents to prove this, he stated that he had lost this document, and that it would take time to get a photocopy from the University of Hong Kong.

Carl told us that as he had worked for the Air Force and later for private corporations, he had attended classes at different colleges and universities in the United States, but he never had received any formal degree. At one time he had enough credits to get a degree, but due to his lack of finances, this never materialized.

When I asked him why he had lied to so many pastors and people, he gave the following explanation:

The LIE had begun early in his life, when he still was an enlisted man in the United States Air Force. Since he did not get the ranks and promotions that he felt were due him, he began to invent his own to enable him to be more successful. Once he had left the Air Force, he was constantly lying about his credentials in order to get better paying jobs.

When I look over the documents that Carl Sanders has furnished me, the following picture emerges: In the Air Force he was in charge of repair and maintenance of instruments, such as Electronic Engine Pressure and Fuel Gauging, electronic Digital Data Processing Equipment, the Sage Computer System as a repair man, optic repairs of sextants, repairs of airspeeds/rate of climbs/altimeters/attitude gyros, etc,

HERE IS THE TRUTH: IN THE AIR FORCE CARL SANDERS WAS AN ENLISTED MAN WORKING IN MAINTENANCE AND REPAIRS, BUT SKILLED ENOUGH THAT HE WAS SENT TO A NUMBER OF TRAINING PROGRAMS. HE BECAME A SKILLED TECHNICIAN, AND WITH HIS LYING HE WAS ABLE TO FIND JOBS IN THE CIVILIAN SECTOR THAT HE WAS NOT ENTITLED TO.

During 1967 Carl Sanders was working for General Electric as a Headquarters Field Engineer, but he was not in charge of any operations, he was a simple technician working under others. Carl's bragging about his high salaries are not true either. Looking at employment agreements from 1981 between R26E of America, Inc., a Minnesota corporation and Carl Sanders’ salary was set to $36,000.00 per year. Indicating that he was paid as a technician.

Looking at his employment contract with the Polaris Computer Company, dated May 31, 1282, his salary was set at $30,000.00 per year, plus a housing allowance of 40% of his monthly salary. If Carl Sanders was in charge of the operation of the Polaris Computer Company in Hong Kong with such a low salary, the company must not have had a high regard for Carl Sanders.

When I confronted Carl with this, he told me that all companies lie about salaries. This is done so that the IRS can be duped. Carl told me that he was paid under the table large amounts of money, including stocks in the company, to evade paying taxes. If this is true, here is another lie that Carl lived.

When I asked him about his statement that his name is on a number of microcomputer chips, he confessed that this was another lie he had told. According to Carl the truth is that he had his name signed on a blue print many years ago, when he was part of a work team that was trying to further develop the microchip. When I asked him about his statement that he was heading up a 100 man research team that was working on the development of the micro chip, he told me that this was not true either. Carl then told us that there were three groups working on this project, and according to Carl, he was in charge of the 30-man group from General Electric. I doubt very much that he was in charge of this smaller group.

CONCLUSION
After reading photocopies of the documents that Carl Sanders furnished to me, and after talking with him on two occasions since his lying was discovered, this is my conclusion:

Carl Sanders is a very brilliant man, but void of moral understanding. That he has been living a lie for the last 30 years did not bother him at all. When he received Christ a few years ago, the lying was never dealt with. Thus he lived a double life as a born again Christian and as a shrewd business man/technician.

When he was operated on for terminal cancer in June, 1990 at the VA hospital in Spokane, Washington, he felt that God spoke to him and was calling him into full time ministry. When I pressed Carl on this issue, he told me that in the beginning of his meetings, he tried to preach Christ and holiness and call people to repentance, but the response was not there.  However, when he began talking about the end times and the development of the microchip, people responded in mass, and suddenly he was drawn into this message. Carl told me that with each meeting the old LIE WOULD GET BIGGER AND BIGGER. Suddenly he found himself back with the old lie, and he did not know how to get out of it. Carl then told me he felt that the message was so important, he began to invent his degrees in order to have more credibility with people. The Lie was now getting bigger and bigger as Carl became known nationally and internationally. Then followed the TV interviews, the radio programs, meetings in large churches and prophecy conferences.

Being very smart Carl was able to read up on the subject and took information from other sources. For example, the microchips that he displayed in his meetings, including the scanner and the implant gun, he had purchased from Terry Cook for $2000.00, which he never paid. Just prior to this meeting with me, he had returned the material to Terry Cook in Los Angeles.

At the end of our meeting I openly rebuked Carl and told him that he had lied to God and his church and that this was a sin which had to be dealt with. Both he and his wife broke down and began to cry. Carl then told us that he had asked God to forgive him for this horrible sin and now he was asking us if we would forgive him. Each one of us told him that in the name of Jesus we did forgive him.

I then proceeded to tell Carl that his ministry was over and the only decent thing for him to do was to shut it down, and notify the people he had lied to.  I told Cad that he should take at least one year off, and use that time to read the Bible, seek God and ask God to rebuild him and give him an understanding that God is light and that we cannot have any lies at all in our lives.  I told him he should put himself under a pastor and a church, and be held accountable to that church, and once he had matured, God would restore his ministry (he is a good preacher), but that the message of the microchip and the end times is out for him. He should concentrate on preaching Christ and Christ Crucified.

Furthermore, I told him that he should write a lengthy confession, and in detail share with people what he had done and where he had gone wrong. I promised to print this in the next issue of The Dove, so that he could come clean with the whole church, not only in America but also in the other nations where his message had gone.

I also told him that he needed to go through deliverance, and be set free from the lying spirits that had been in his body for all these years. We offered, as a church, to help him with this. Under tears, Carl and his wife received this and agreed that this was the road that they would take. The meeting closed with prayer, more tears, and we all hugged before we left.

Carl had promised me to go to work on his confession at once, and at the same time shut down his operation in Walnut Creek.

The following week I received a phone call from Carl, and he stated to me that the next day the confession was to be faxed to me. His voice was very cold when he talked to me, and it became clear to me that what Carl and Ruby had said in my office was not how he felt now. If the church in Walnut Creek with Pastor Amstalden had anything to do with this, I do not know. (It is noteworthy that during this month of investigation, Pastor Amstalden had made no effort to contact me).

On January 11th, 1994 I received my last phone call from Carl Sanders. He stated to me that he was not going to write a confession. In the phone call the day before he told me that he had written a two page statement, which I told him was not a confession, and a document of reconciliation with the body of Christ, which he had hurt. Again, his voice was cold and he stated that he was not going to defend himself, but that he was going to close down his ministry and move on. He then told me that he wanted me to write his confession since I had been with him and had all the facts. I told him, that it would not be the same as coming from him. But his mind was made up, and he told me good bye. I quickly told him that I had prepared four radio broadcasts, which would explain to the people living In Central California, what had happened to Carl Sanders. He wanted to know the time and the station, so that he could listen. I asked him what he was going to do about his deliverance from the lying spirits. He told me that he would pray about the matter. His manner and his voice told me that this was going to be the last time I heard from Carl Sanders. He was through with me and he was going to do his own thing.

Before I let him go. I asked how he was going to make a living. He told me that he had a small pension and disability payments from the government and that this would sustain him and his wife.

It is with deep sorrow that I have to write this report. I believe that Carl Sander and his wife Ruby really love God, but they are running from God and from taking responsibility. They are receiving bad advice from someone, and thus the body of Christ will suffer. I hold no anger or bitterness toward Carl Sanders; I feel only a great sorrow in my heart that I could not help a brother to be restored. In our ministry we have destroyed all the material concerning Carl Sanders and I ask all the people who purchased tapes from us to forgive me for selling them to you. I should have investigated him before promoting his ministry and I have asked God for forgiveness.  I hope that you will also be able to forgive me.

John S. Torell
Pastor of Resurrection Life of Jesus Church, Sacramento, CA
President of European-American Evangelistic Crusades

Tel:  888-708-3232
Fax:  (530) 633-2918


Pastor Paul Wood  (208) 459-9755
Pastor Ernest Amstalden  (515) 826-0376


Carl Sanders - Part 2
Carl Sanders - Part 3

Back to Being Berean: Various Subjects and The Bible's Answers